Control your levels people! [Archive]

View Full Version : Control your levels people!

infuzion

01-23-2010, 07:34 PM

Over & over again, almost every song I buy & mix I download is way over compressed. It kills the quality, since you lose out on alot of dynamics & nuances, & honestly it wears out my ears after a while. Here are good to help monitor levels, does anyone else have good tips?

http://productionadvice.co.uk/how-to-avoid-over-compressing-your-mix/
[/URL]http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=269950&highlight=relife (http://www.brainworx-music.de/index.php?nav=36&um=0&lang=en)
TT Dynamic Range Meter free on bottom of page
[url]http://www.brainworx-music.de/en/download?PHPSESSID=go7np4a81ve81746nr2tpecfb7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvheOquAmyw&NR=1

WAVERUNNER

01-23-2010, 10:48 PM

Welcome to 99% of the djs in the world. They all think more reds are good. Dynomite D = king of the reds

DMinus

01-24-2010, 08:27 AM

Welcome to 99% of the djs in the world. They all think more reds are good.

truth

Just Ben

01-24-2010, 09:56 AM

This shit drives me bananas too..

I would have thought that by the time you reached the status of a headliner you would know better, but that is not the case..

I ran sound for a small afterhours a few months back and the out of state headliner (who shall remain nameless) had the gain and the master FULL into the red the entire set even after I told him to turn it down (and that if he did that I would turn up the amp rack) several times.

I mean he was SO far into the red, it never dipped down into the yellows. I just kept having to turn him down to protect all the gear, and he'd just turn it up again..

Then I tell him AGAIN: KEEP IT OUT OF THE FUCKING REDS AND I WILL TURN IT UP. IF YOU ARE IN THE RED I WILL TURN YOU DOWN. VERY SIMPLE. YOU CAN NOT OUT KNOB ME, I WILL WIN.

I know you were talking with production, but the same thing applies..

Fonzie

01-24-2010, 10:04 AM

^^^:lol: @ out-knob

Botrytis

01-24-2010, 10:55 AM

knob-off!!

Kenshō

01-24-2010, 12:01 PM

There's a lot of pretengineers out there. Anyone who intentionally sets levels past digital 0dB is a dumb ass.

You've also mentioned how everyone's shit is over-compressed. It's truly sad- when you over compress, you completely minimize the amount of dynamic range, and turn your song into total shit. The loudness war is fucking stupid- and it's destroying music. The average intelligence of music listeners today is steadily decreasing with the age of mp3's, iPods, and unnatural shitty sounding music.

cardinal

01-24-2010, 03:11 PM

I blame drum and bass

infuzion

01-24-2010, 03:19 PM

Thanks for chipping in everyone, I thought I was the only one going nuts.

Then I tell him AGAIN: KEEP IT OUT OF THE FUCKING REDS AND I WILL TURN IT UP. IF YOU ARE IN THE RED I WILL TURN YOU DOWN. VERY SIMPLE. YOU CAN NOT OUT KNOB ME, I WILL WIN.I wouldn't go that far; I'd just have a hard limiter before the amp & tell your boss he won't listen. People who used the first few versions of the Pioneer DJ mixers would constantly red line all the time; no self control.

For engineering a live DJ, I wonder if we can do a jedi-mind trick, where you can hack the mixer so the actual main out levels are always -6 or -9db of the levels shown on the mixer & coming out the monitors. So the e-tards think they are maxing out the volume, but the real levels are more sane. Might be trickier on digital mixers though...

infuzion

01-24-2010, 03:22 PM

I blame drum and bass+1
Then Armond Van Heldon picked that up when he DJed the UK, & started to compress alot more than everyone else in the House realm. I can remember looking at my meters when I was listening to some New Order mixes he did in the mid-90s, saying to my self, "oh-oh...".

Some producers/record label owners on this very board have too much compression IMHO...

dave

01-25-2010, 12:51 PM

For engineering a live DJ, I wonder if we can do a jedi-mind trick, where you can hack the mixer so the actual main out levels are always -6 or -9db of the levels shown on the mixer & coming out the monitors. So the e-tards think they are maxing out the volume, but the real levels are more sane. Might be trickier on digital mixers though...

Rane did it to all 2016s after the original to keep folks from redlining the unit, also took some gain away from the EQs... just pad down the output stage....

i have some old gear that had bolts drilled into the faceplate (which acted as a physical limiter, ie you can not turn the gain knob past 'this far')

i've seen limiters hidden in consoles also...

:)

how do dynamic range expanders do on quick fixing over compressed tracks? ie dbx 3bx, RG dynamics units, etc....

infuzion

01-25-2010, 02:16 PM

I have some old gear that had bolts drilled into the faceplate
how do dynamic range expanders do on quick fixing over compressed tracks? ie dbx 3bx, RG dynamics units, etc....The bolt is good advice for dealing with DJs who have a few nuts loose.

I don't know about hardware expanders, but using the software linked to above I see about 2-5db increase of RMS.

dave

01-25-2010, 02:29 PM

some of the old hardware expanders did 12db in both directions, so up to 24db more available range 'theoretically'...

I say 'theoretically' b/c certain units sometimes introduced audible artifacts (called 'pumping' or something), so realistically most folks used them for up to 18/20db of expansion....

the RG units did not seem to 'pump' as easily as the other brands of expanders.

Jontron

01-25-2010, 02:33 PM

my technique is to turn everything up as loud as I can, and then brickwall it ... really make it sounds FAT!

..... ;) ;)

Xplicit

01-25-2010, 04:12 PM

I blame drum and bass

:lol: me too!

Citrus

01-25-2010, 07:38 PM

KEEP IT OUT OF THE FUCKING REDS AND I WILL TURN IT UP.

haha. and what pisses me off just as much are "sound engineers" who are either not paying attention (or not present during my set) and leave my levels low when i try to take it out of the red and back to a reasonable level because the jackass before me was raging on the master output.

infuzion

01-25-2010, 08:26 PM

haha. and what pisses me off just as much are "sound engineers" who are either not paying attention (or not present during my set) and leave my levels low when i try to take it out of the red and back to a reasonable level because the jackass before me was raging on the master output.Good point! Perhaps what we DJs who watch our levels should ask the engineers before we go on what levels they want our mixer to be at. Then ask him/her to ride the amp a bit to get everything adjusted properly.

Alert

01-25-2010, 09:27 PM

pretengineers

:clap2::clap2::clap2:

DJRegi

01-25-2010, 10:47 PM

brandon bass

01-25-2010, 10:59 PM

^^think of it like a traffic signal lol^^

infuzion

01-25-2010, 11:30 PM

So do you all keep it in the yellow zone, or green? Where should it "technically" be for best quality. My intuition is telling me green, but I know a lot of DJs who only keep it in yellow....??? Any sound engineers have the "official" answer as to where to keep your levels, or does it depend on each song?Honestly, it depends on how the meters are designed (max peak, averaged peak, RMS), if the mixer in question is digital or analogue, if your mixing into a speaker system, digital audio card, or direct-to-tape. Basic rule of thumb is:

Loudest you can go with the most dynamics.

Most of the time dynamics = no clipping, a must-do if you are digital, so don't ever go above 0db or you'll get nasty clipping. The Pioneer mixers were infamous about this. If you're mixing into analoge, then you have some room, since they tend to have "warm" compression if you go too loud, so rare peaks above 0db is OK, perhaps even better sounding. Either way, I'd avoid any compression unless you have the recording & are mastering, since you'd want about 10-14db dynamic range. Which music hasn't had in a decade. Not enough volume is bad also, since lack of volume means you lose resolution (bit-depth on digial, bad S/N on analoge).

If I'm DJing on a system I've never played before, I'd ask the engeneer. If (s)he isn't available, I'll assume a digital system & I'd keep it below 0db, then watch the meter. If the meter seems to average the levels, I'd keep peaks around -2.5db (just touching the red), since riding 0db gives intersample peaks = noise. If the meter really bounces around, I'll asume the meter is very unaveraged & I can go touch -1db/just under 0db, since a rare clip every 2 minutes is no biggie.

At home, I go 24bit, use VST plugs to wach my levles, & never never hit 0db, but try to keep it as close to -0.1db as I can, while keeping the dynamics as big as I can go.

edit: Per-song vs other songs is tricky, since 30yo tracks aren't produced the same as they are now. Even things have changed in the last 10 years. EQing is done differently, more & more compression is used, etc. You'll have to ride levels & EQ if mixing across decades, since older songs 3-12db RMS quieter than they are now.

edit2: 3db = 50%, so when mixing 2 tracks together with out a cross-fader or a blend setup that is 100% of both, you generally go -3db each song. Louder if you cut out the EQ while blending.

WAVERUNNER

01-26-2010, 12:00 AM

Years ago, when I actually went to a recording school, we had a whole week of proper signal flow and maintaining the integrity of the audio signal. I constantly would try to tell Dyno how he was only hurting his quality of the audio by redlining every fader at every stage. It was a waist of breath. He then proceeded to tell me how the soundcraft mixing board was not that kind of board and I didn't know what I was talking about. The funny thing is, he does that for a living and is now in charge of others. When you point out the degraded audio signal, he replies, "thats how I wanted it to sound".

infuzion

01-26-2010, 12:48 AM

The funny thing is, he does that for a living and is now in charge of others. When you point out the degraded audio signal, he replies, "thats how I wanted it to sound".Self-denial at its finest. Where does "Dyno" work at? I need to avoid that place!

dave

01-26-2010, 01:54 PM

Honestly, it depends on how the meters are designed (max peak, averaged peak, RMS),

yep.... and how the readings actually relate to the capacity of the piece of gear.... which you may or may not be able to find out....

( for instance..... I have outboard meters, and their readings don't relate to 0db from the mixer, but rather they relate to how loud, (on an average to loud record), it would be 'in room')

on the other hand, if your really a geek, you can find out what voltage the next piece of equipment in chain can handle....

basically don't feed the equipment downstream anything it can't handle...

sounds simple, but it's not always so...

:)

Botrytis

01-26-2010, 05:37 PM

Is there a way to compress or limit a signal into the computer before it hits your radio show? this would be very helpful if someone is into programing

Erik Mitchell

01-26-2010, 05:48 PM

brandon bass

01-26-2010, 05:53 PM

^^possibly the best song ever?^^

lmao

superchibisan

01-26-2010, 08:37 PM

http://www.eternalbeats.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27343

recently had a bout of this on the local board in LV

Alert

01-27-2010, 08:05 PM

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l143/Sean_Alert/StopRedlining.jpg

Kenshō

01-27-2010, 09:06 PM

It's really pathetic that this redlining issue is so widespread. What the fuck do we give the listener volume control for?!

WAVERUNNER

01-28-2010, 10:10 PM

really, in the studio, it comes down to the kind of sound you are looking for. Personally, I go for defination over loudness. Live -you actually lose volume by redlining, and just fuck up the audio.

I have been considering buying a Rane MP44. It has an optional remote control master volume, so you can override any dj redlining the mixer. Might be a good investment.

DJ Hero

02-08-2010, 02:50 PM

^^^:lol: @ out-knob

Just Ben has officially become the master Knob

Alert

02-08-2010, 02:54 PM

At the most recent show I played, I was careful to babysit my own levels to make sure nothing went into yellow.

The sound guy actually thanked me after my set for not redlining.

:thumb:

Daver

02-08-2010, 03:34 PM

what has made this so difficult for people to understand........seriously, how fucking dumb and or deaf do you need to be to make this mistake?

Alert

02-08-2010, 05:54 PM

http://www.24hourhiphop.com/files/articles/defjam.jpg

http://www.whybcatholic.com/adopt/Images/ASLAlphabet.jpg

http://www.boston.com/ae/theater_arts/exhibitionist/bullhorn.jpg

WAVERUNNER

02-08-2010, 10:14 PM

what has made this so difficult for people to understand........seriously, how fucking dumb and or deaf do you need to be to make this mistake?
Dynomite straight up refuses to follow this rule, even says that it does not apply to him.

*I have to hide my speaker cables when I leave.

infuzion

02-09-2010, 12:21 AM

what has made this so difficult for people to understand........seriously, how fucking dumb and or deaf do you need to be to make this mistake?You just called 1/3 of the CO DJs "dumb and or deaf".

cybr

02-09-2010, 10:42 AM

1/3??! I'd say more like 2/3 or more...

DJ Hero

02-09-2010, 11:59 AM

But wait, every picture I find online the LED read out is sitting in the red. You means that's not how I am supposed to mix?

goreteks

02-09-2010, 12:12 PM

I love the excuse " if i am not supposed to redline the mixer, why are there red lights on it?" loser probably didnt know the definition of "indicator" either....like redlining a mixer is part of the exciting visual aspect built into the mixer to enhance the trainspotters' experience....hahah

Street_Knowledge

03-01-2010, 09:47 AM

At diamond after dark we run out of the mixer on stage where the "guest" dj is, into a channel on my mixer in my booth. This last weekend for rdn's special event, peoples sound levels were ALL OVER the place from four greens to four reds in a matter of seconds, EVERY song was at a different level for most of the night. LITERALLY the only dj who was capable of watching his levels was adam consigli (not sure what his dj name is now)

I talked to him beforehand and said something about all the reds on the stage mixer being lit and he said he would get them out of the red, he did, and i actually turned him up on the master and gave the amps a little extra because i knew that the next song wasnt going to be a 6db increase :lol:

Is this not in new dj 101 anymore?

Just Ben

03-01-2010, 10:24 AM

Is this not in new dj 101 anymore?

Dude, you have to get to like, level 60 on expert in DJ Hero before you can unlock the LEVELS feature..

That shit it hard..

Chandler

03-01-2010, 11:33 AM

Street_Knowledge

03-09-2010, 06:16 AM

Dude, you have to get to like, level 60 on expert in DJ Hero before you can unlock the LEVELS feature..

That shit it hard..

i seriously want to stream a live video of the levels on the mixer their signal is being run into for the next event. Its astonishing to me that someone who dj's OUT still doesnt know how to match/watch their levels. mixing in/out of a track, whatever a slight increase. on the mic, also a slight increase is understandable. I am talking four greens lit up so i turn it up on the trim to 0db then the next song they are hitting four reds AFTER they mix out.

Its incredibly diheartening to see that so few people playing out have any fucking clue what they are doing.

Disclaimer: I am not the worlds most amazing dj, nor do i think i am, i do however know the basics of mixing, therefore i will criticize those who do not.

infuzion

06-02-2010, 02:15 AM

i seriously want to stream a live video of the levels on the mixer their signal is being run into for the next event. Its astonishing to me that someone who dj's OUT still doesnt know how to match/watch their levels.I find it tricky if I'm mixing old & new tracks after each other. Also of note:

Immediately after noise exposure, people experience what is called a “temporary threshold shift” (http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/hearing/noise.asp) in which their perception of what is really loud becomes significantly lowered. This usually goes away after a few hours of silence but for some unfortunate people it can become a permanent reality. The trouble is that with continuous exposure to noise over long periods, a temporary noise shift can easily start to kick in mid-set. This means that if you are relying on tired ears to gauge where to put levels, then chances are you are making all the wrong decisions. The only solution is to accept that the captain is flying blind and trust the level meters that will provide an accurate picture of the situation. Here is a study (http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/14992020601188575) that examined 30 DJs in Brazil and demonstrated that they all suffered from significant “temporary threshold shift” after their sets. Another study (http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB/produkte.asp?Doi=79331) demonstrated that alcohol could make things worse – great!http://www.djtechtools.com/2010/05/16/dj-essentials-trust-the-levels/
So kids, wear earplugs 100% of the time you don't have headphones on in the club, don't drink (& likely smoke weed) when DJing, & trust the meters.

dave

06-02-2010, 09:17 AM

meters can be set to *anything*

KNOW the system as much as possible is my advise....

Hazefire

06-02-2010, 09:21 PM

(& likely smoke weed)

blashpemy! :D

srsly tho, I find that smoking increases my sensitivity to loudness. at least that's my rationalization. ;)

infuzion

09-23-2010, 09:31 AM

refreshed TT Dynamic Range Meter link

Nymbus

09-24-2010, 04:58 PM

I wish my friends knew this stuff they are terrible with sound and never listen to me. :doh:

ShaneLittle

09-24-2010, 05:08 PM

This shit drives me bananas too..

YOU CAN NOT OUT KNOB ME, I WILL WIN.

You just got me so hott... :shock:

mentat

10-10-2010, 11:06 PM

Im really sick of actually hearing the limiters hit at venues... Seems to happen most with DnB because it seems to be like a solid wall of peak :P But yeah, hearing the limiter completely dump the hihats after every kick gets really annoying.

With what StreetKnowledge was sayin...
I think a ton of DJs have no idea what the gains are there for on the mixer. Most DJs seem to think the mixer is only equipped with 3 band eqs and SUPER SICK PHASER FX.

ALSO - more beer = more red lights.

DMinus

10-11-2010, 07:27 AM

more beer = more red lights.

one of the ten commandments of dj life, for sure.

superchibisan

10-13-2010, 08:49 PM

get churself a vu metere, set that there thing to -20dbfs... mix reallllllll good after there.

mentat

10-13-2010, 08:53 PM

get churself a vu metere, set that there thing to -20dbfs... mix reallllllll good after there.

That would be nice to have installed in a booth just above the mixer...

On another note, I just cracked open Reason 5 today and I noticed that they added (among other things) a large, customizable and decently accurate VU to the hardware interface module.

Now to get my ASIO woes sorted out.....

infuzion

10-13-2010, 10:17 PM

ALSO - more beer = more red lights.drunk-level-driving

dave

10-14-2010, 10:04 AM

get churself a vu metere, set that there thing to -20dbfs... mix reallllllll good after there.

i have a few to unload if anyone is interested...

mentat

10-14-2010, 04:30 PM

drunk-level-driving

when you're cross eyed 0dB becomes +6dB really fast

Alert

10-14-2010, 05:08 PM

Most DJs seem to think the mixer is only equipped with 3 band eqs and SUPER SICK FLANGER FX.

Fixed.

;)

infuzion

10-15-2010, 09:21 AM

when you're cross eyed 0dB becomes +6dB really fastSomeone should add a "volume" knob for the DJ mixer's meters, so what reads +6db on the meter is actually 0db.

superchibisan

10-15-2010, 04:22 PM

i have a few to unload if anyone is interested...
hardware units? how much? how many? what kind? details people, details.

dave

10-18-2010, 09:26 AM

hardware units? how much? how many? what kind? details people, details.

half rack space technical pro units...
(seem to be the same OEM as many other units in a smaller package)

here's the link...
http://www.technicalhifi.com/prods.php?prod=dBB28

they are brand new...

$25 each, I have two units....

http://www.technicalhifi.com/prodimages/pu/dbb28_pu.jpg

DarkKnight

11-05-2010, 08:21 AM

Citrus

11-07-2010, 09:19 PM

Hmmmm...

Last night I was watching Kostas as Beta. I would say that the levels indicator on the mixer are broken ;)... because they only moved when he was mixing in, afterwards they were lit solid for the whole track.

Later Dirty South did the same thing through the whole performance.

Strange I guess... Kostas is their resident DJ, I would think he would be more in tune with that than the guest talent.

LOL. I noticed the same thing. Don't know who was playing, but I just sat there watching the mixer stay solid red. No reason to do that at Beta, especially since I'm sure they have a sound tech who will turn you up as soon as you turn the mixer down...